The Immigration Game: How Laws & Policies Shape Lives in America

Arnold: 00:00:00

Employment authorization, temporary and permanent residency, naturalization. What does that all mean as it relates to immigration and the law? We're going to talk about that today on St. Louis in Tune. Welcome to St.

Louis in Tune, and thank you for joining us for fresh perspectives on issues and events with experts, community leaders and everyday people who make a difference in shaping our society and world. I'm Arnold Stricker along with co host Mark Langston. This is going to be a great conversation today, Mark.

Mark: 00:00:40

I know. I'm excited about it, actually.

It's going to be one of those put your big boy pants on and talk about stuff, but it's really one of those subjects that's real important that I think people don't really, totally understand, completely understand. And we're going to just try to scratch the surface maybe and see what it is.

Arnold: 00:00:59

And there's a lot of terms that are thrown around on the media when people just watch or they listen and they're not quite sure maybe what they mean or they're believing what they're told.

And what we want to try to do is clarify some of those things and make, make it easier for them to understand that the issue of immigration and what's going on today is getting very complex. So I'll just leave it there.

Mark: 00:01:20

And political and very.

Arnold: 00:01:21

It's getting politicized. Yes.

Mark: 00:01:23

There you go.

Arnold: 00:01:24

So we're glad that you've joined us today. We want to thank our sponsor, Better Rate Mortgage, for their support of the show.

You can listen to previous shows@stlintune.com please help us continue to grow by leaving a review on the website, Apple Podcast or your preferred podcast platform. I return to civility today. We always need to return to civility, folks. Pick up your dog's mess. Even if no one saw her make it.

The experience of picking up dog messes gets exponentially worse when it's someone else's dog's mess. And downtown where I live, they have bags, etc. And then you have individuals who just let their dog do their business and walk away.

Mark: 00:02:03

You had to go down this road, didn't you?

Arnold: 00:02:05

It's a setup. It's a setup.

Mark: 00:02:07

It's a setup.

Arnold: 00:02:08

Yeah, I know. So please pick up your dog's mess. Even if no one saw her make it.

Mark: 00:02:15

I'm the guy in the neighborhood that says, get off my lawn. And I will come out the door and say, pick up that mess.

Arnold: 00:02:23

It's not hard to do.

Mark: 00:02:24

No. But what gets me is this is terrible. Maybe I shouldn't even say it. The people that do pick it up, thank you very much.

But they're swinging it as they drive along. They're swinging it like a watch.

Arnold: 00:02:34

What I do is the cans on the corner downtown. I try. What is it? Corn. Cornball. That game. Okay, I, I play cornball.

Mark: 00:02:41

Do you?

Arnold: 00:02:42

Yeah, actually. How far can I get away from what? If you miss, I go up and pick it up.

Mark: 00:02:45

Okay.

Arnold: 00:02:46

It's a. But it's in a bag. The bags are pretty sturdy.

Mark: 00:02:49

We gotta stop this because this is just not right.

Arnold: 00:02:52

There are other messes that are going on.

Oh, there's plenty of messes, and they involve immigration and some of the things that are going on with executive orders, some of the people who are being sent out of the country. In studio, we're going to be talking to Caitlin M. O' Connor. She's an immigration attorney for the International Institute.

She also has done private practice before. And David J. Harris, who's an immigration and real estate attorney. And he is just a friend of Mark's and mine. We go way, way back. Yeah.

Way back to like elementary school.

Mark: 00:03:24

Yeah. Long time ago.

Arnold: 00:03:25

It's a long time. Welcome, both of you, to St. Lucent. June.

Caitlin: 00:03:27

Thank you.

David: 00:03:28

Thank you. Glad to be here.

Arnold: 00:03:29

Where I want to start is there's this Alphabet of terms that are thrown around. Like people may hear H1B. They may hear EB4. There is employment, there's employment based residency.

There's business kind of residency, there's family residency. And I guess, David, I'll start with you. Talk a little bit about employ based residency or business residency. What are some of those?

The most prevalent kinds of things that people may be familiar with or experience.

David: 00:03:59

Okay, thank you. Thank you, Arnold and Mark, glad to be here. And with you, Caitlin, as well. There's, I guess one of the ways to do it.

And Caitlin, if you could chime in here as well, please. There's several ways people come into the United States. There's employment based.

There's family based, there's refugees and asylum and other ways of coming in. You were asking me primarily about employment based.

Those are people who come here to work in the United States and there's various ways they can get work authorization to be here. One of the more common ways are what are known as H1B, which is something that I work with.

Those are for professional positions where people have either bachelor's degree or higher or its equivalent. There's also H2BS. Those are for temporary workers. And then there's other categories of work authorization. And those are for Non immigrants.

Those are people who are here temporarily to work.

A lot of the people who come here temporarily to work also have a desire to become permanent residents in the United States that is be able to stay here permanently.

And there's processes by which, through the employment based, which is oftentimes abbreviated as EB for employment based, different employment based ways of staying here and getting permanent residency. And permanent residency then can lead to naturalization. Become a US Citizen, if that's what somebody wants to.

Arnold: 00:05:25

So there's a difference between an H1B, H2B and someone who may be working as a migrant worker in California or Arizona and things like that. That's what you're saying, that there's actually.

David: 00:05:37

A lot of different work categories. There are people here, migrant workers being one of them, who can come in here seasonal work or temporary workers.

And there's also people, as discussed, a lot who are here undocumented but are still working and contributing to our society and contributing to our tax base and everything else. People who can then become permanent residents have to be here authorized. They have to be documented.

Arnold: 00:06:03

Okay.

David: 00:06:03

And that's part of the pathway to becoming a permanent resident and a citizen.

Arnold: 00:06:06

How long are these H1B, H2Bs good for? Three years, five years.

David: 00:06:11

I'll talk about H1Bs because that's one that I'm most familiar with. H1Bs are good for up to six years in two, three year terms.

And during that period of time, for someone to be here more than six years, they have to be into the permanent residency process.

Arnold: 00:06:28

Okay.

David: 00:06:29

And that there's various categories of employment based EB categories that somebody can then pursue.

There's EB1 for non citizens of extraordinary ability, teachers and professors, or professors and researchers, or even people who are international employees, managers. And that many of them that I work with are EB2, which is people who have a master's degree or higher.

EB3, somebody who has a bachelor's degree or higher. There's also some other categories, EB4 and EB5 for somebody who has a large investment in the United States.

There's also religious workers who can also become permanent residents.

Arnold: 00:07:12

So are these people who would want to gain permanent residency and become a citizen or they're just here working?

David: 00:07:17

Some people are here working temporarily, then go back to their home countries. A lot of people want to come and work and live in the United States and stay here permanently. And so there is a process for that, depending on.

I can get into that more, depending on what country they're from.

Sometimes it takes a long time for them to become permanent residents because there's quotas on the number of people who can, what's known as adjust status to become a permanent resident. There's quotas by country, quotas overall, the number who can adjust each year.

There's limits on the number of people who can be EH1BS each year as well.

Mark: 00:07:52

David, these different categories, I don't know how, if I was coming to this country and having the challenge of even speaking the language and then having all of these different categories that I have to figure out, like where do I fit into all of this? That has got to be one of the biggest challenges. I think any immigrant that's coming to our country has.

David: 00:08:14

Yeah, working through the immigration system can be a challenge. A lot of the employees, it's their employers who get their, their work authorization for them.

Mark: 00:08:24

So there is help right there.

David: 00:08:26

There is.

And with H1BS, for instance, there's a limit of every year of 65,000 H1BS that are available, plus another 20,000 for those who have master's degrees or higher from US universities. But that's 85,000 workers. But every year there's two, three, four times as many people applying. So there's a limit on that.

One of the things that can be done by Congress, but they haven't done it in years, is raise that number so that more workers can work here in the United States.

There are certain categories for H1BS that aren't subject to that limit or that cap, including universities, certain research and government institutions. They can hire people at pretty much any time.

But you still have to go through a process of showing that somebody is qualified to work here in the United States.

Arnold: 00:09:14

Okay. And Caitlin, you work for the International Institute.

You, I'm going to guess, deal a lot with the immigrants who are coming in here, but talk a little bit about the family based residency or the things that you deal with and explain that portion to us.

Caitlin: 00:09:30

Yeah, so I do some employment based work, but a majority of my practice right now is helping individuals. What I would consider the humanitarian based categories.

So one, I think big definition and thing that I work with primarily is the difference between a refugee and an asylee or someone who's coming to the United States to seek asylum. So a refugee is a specific individual who enters the US in that status. That number.

The number of refugees allowed into the United States is created by Congress on an annual basis. And there's a long process of vetting these individuals.

They're oftentimes in third Countries where they're able to interview with the United States Embassy in that country.

And they typically go through a minimum of two, sometimes three interviews before they're actually accepted into the program and receive essentially travel authorization to come to the United States as refugees. Again, this is created by Congress and funded by Congress. That is primarily what the International Institute has been involved in.

We are one of the designated agencies to help resettle refugees in the United States.

In doing that, we promise the government assists those individuals for a limited period of time in resettling in the United States, providing things like three months of housing. We put apartments together, clothing, we collect goods and things and help them.

In addition to providing them with legal services and social services, helping them get their kids enrolled in school, providing English classes, providing just things and resources that will help them acclimate in the United States. Three years, or, I'm sorry, three months of that in addition to ongoing case management.

So not only are we, we provide them with a limited time housing of three months, but then we on monitor them ongoing. They have someone here at the institute.

Mark: 00:11:44

Three months doesn't seem like much to me.

Arnold: 00:11:46

It's not a long time.

Mark: 00:11:47

How many more organizations like International Institute is there in the country? Said you're one of the.

Caitlin: 00:11:53

I don't have the total number in the St. Louis and Missouri area. There's less than a dozen.

Mark: 00:11:59

Yeah, that's what I think.

Caitlin: 00:11:59

One, unfortunately, I think just closed due to the cuts that we've been seeing recently. But those people who have entered at the moment, that program is paused by executive order.

But it is created by Congress and funded by Congress, and the program is still there.

I think it remains to be seen as to whether it will be restarted and if Congress will kind of act to allow it to be restarted because it was created by Congress. So that's a refugee. Generally, it's a specific status that you enter. It is a legal entry.

It is an entry that will lead to a green card and potentially citizenship. Okay. So the other form of kind of humanitarian based seeker or applicant immigrant is asylum. And we've, I think heard a lot about that recently.

Individuals either come to the border or enter on a visa and they can then apply for asylum within the United States. It's essentially the same as the refugee program. So you need to meet the same requirements in that you have danger in your home country.

You have to prove that you have been injured or are likely to be injured in your home country that you cannot return. But it can only be applied for from within the United States.

Arnold: 00:13:21

So Refugees are outside the country applying asylum. You're in the country applying, Correct.

Caitlin: 00:13:26

You cannot apply to be a refugee from within the United States.

It only is processed from outside the US Asylum does not come with the kind of safety net we discussed, where they get work authorization, where they have three months of assistance, ongoing case management, resettlement, things like that. So asylum seekers are applying here and then waiting for their case to be heard.

So a lot of people who have entered, there may be changes that happen in their country while they're here in the US for example, war breaks out and they need to apply for asylum. Some of them come here because they have problems in their country, and they may go to the border and seek entry through the border.

Those people, depending upon the time and when and how they entered at the border, and may have a legal entry, officially a legal entry, or an illegal entry, which we would call an entry without inspection.

Arnold: 00:14:26

So when it's a legal entry, it could be like, hey, I'm here on a, say, maybe an education visa, or I'm here to go to school, or I'm here on a travel visa, like, I just want to tour the United States. Would those be reasons why people would be here? And then they say, I want asylum.

Caitlin: 00:14:41

Correct.

So, for example, I had a person who was a student here in the United States for many years, but then the war broke out in Palestine and West bank, and he applied for asylum and said, when I first got here, things were okay in my country, but now I can't go back. So those are some protections and some things that asylum offers.

Typically, you have one year from the date of your last entry to the United States to apply for asylum. So there are some limitations on it. You can't just apply anytime.

But asylum is also a statute and a protection that we have created by Congress, and it's within the INA or the immigration body of laws that kind of codify the rules for asylum.

Arnold: 00:15:28

Now, the visas, whether they're for, like, school or travel, they're for a specific period of time, Correct.

So if you wait till the maybe second to last day to apply for asylum, do you have to leave the country because your visa is expiring or does because I applied for asylum, now I can stay or what's the scoop with that?

Caitlin: 00:15:49

Yeah, so that's a great question. And the answer, short answer, is yes, asylum gives you should give you the ability to stay here without being deported.

So it essentially pauses your period of illegality or overstay while that asylum application is pending.

Arnold: 00:16:10

Now, where are the situation with many of individuals in our country who are either in the situation we just talked about, they had maybe a student visa or travel visa and they want to have asylum here.

And then the refugees, I think that's been cut off right now from the current administration and then individuals with work visas who are here, and maybe those expire. What are we hearing in the media? What is the administration? Which group are they focusing on? Are they focusing mainly on the illegal group?

Are they focusing on those who maybe they have expired kind of situations? This a big question here because I want to come full around because, Caitlin, you mentioned Congress several times.

Who really has written the law, who's funded this thing? And now you have the executive branch who's decided they're designed to carry out the law and they've done executive orders in there.

So roundabout question there. Where are most of the. Like when people see the news and they go, oh, which group do these people fall into?

David: 00:17:17

That's a good question, Arnold. And there's a lot of different groups, and it's sometimes hard to keep track of it as you are identifying. The rhetoric was.

Is mostly aimed at people here who are here unauthorized, who have been charged or convicted of crimes. Okay, that was supposedly the focus. That has not been the focus of the current administration.

Arnold: 00:17:43

Okay.

David: 00:17:43

The current administration has been going after a lot of different categories. People who are here. There were students who are being. Their visas were being canceled.

That has been overturned temporarily, at least by courts because of some pretty significant challenges. There are currently. And I looked up this number in detention at the moment. There's about the last figure I saw that are migrants in ice.

Detention by ice. That's another one of those abbreviations. ICE stands for Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

ICE is part of the Department of Homeland Security, as is the U.S.

citizenship and Immigration Service, which carries out a lot of the processes for immigration, and also Customs and Border Protection, cbp, who deal with people coming at the border. But in ICE detention right now there's almost 50,000 people.

30.8% of them have criminal convictions, 40, 26% have pending criminal charges, and 43.5% of them have some other immigration violation, which might just be an overstay, somebody who overstayed their visa and oftentimes have defenses for that.

Arnold: 00:19:04

Are they in camps they are in. Are they at their home?

David: 00:19:07

Most of them are now in detention facilities. All over the country, there are prisons that have been converted into detention facilities.

The administration is spending billions of dollars on these detention facilities. So there's a variety of focuses for this current administration on who is being targeted for deportation.

The other area are people who actually have some category.

They're here in the United States right now on different categories, including temporary protective status, which is something that was authorized by Congress and implemented by the President.

Actually, I'm not sure Congress authorized the President to provide temporary protective status, known as tps, to individuals from various countries who are experiencing either natural disaster or, you know, some political upheaval.

The President has the authority to grant what's known as tps, which has been done to people from a lot of different countries, including Venezuela, Cuba and Nicaragua, Haiti. And the current administration is getting, trying to get rid of the TPS authorizations.

And therefore the people who are currently covered by TPS are then subject to deportation.

Arnold: 00:20:26

And was that the recent Supreme Court ruling yesterday that Venezuelan refugees could be deported because of that was from a previous executive order that was canceled.

David: 00:20:35

Yeah. And they were not. This is one of these distinctions. They're not.

They weren't refugees because they weren't people who were vetted outside of the United States to come to the United States. They were asylum and they weren't.

Caitlin: 00:20:47

They. Maybe they don't have to be though. But basically they entered the United States in some manner.

Arnold: 00:20:53

Okay.

Caitlin: 00:20:54

And they applied for tps, were approved, and then the government has stated that we are ending the TPS early. What happened yesterday was that the stay was lifted on preventing those people from be deported.

And they, I believe now will look at the underlying case to see whether it was legal to cancel or end that TPS early. That, I think, is the underlying issue of that case.

Arnold: 00:21:23

Caitlyn, what's the authority for going ahead and having people in what I'm going to refer to as internment camps? What's the authority of other than I'm the President and I can do this? Well, is this where the Alien Aliens.

Caitlin: 00:21:40

With Alien Enemies Act?

Arnold: 00:21:43

Is that where this comes into play?

Caitlin: 00:21:45

It does to an extent.

It also what has happened is the government has stated that certain categories of people who entered the United States with legal authorization during the Biden administration under programs such as humanitarian based parole, CBP1, they have determined that those people no longer have status.

So although they entered with a legal status, were under that status, were allowed to apply for work authorization cards, and were allowed to stay for a limited period of time. Typically I've seen between three months and two years. So Ukrainians came two years.

Most people who entered on CBP1 were either one year or two year stays. Those people are having their parole or legal status ended.

Arnold: 00:22:38

Yeah. It's not parole or probation based upon some kind of I'm a criminal kind.

David: 00:22:43

Of, although it sounds like it, it does. Parole is permission to come into the.

Caitlin: 00:22:47

United States, temporary permission.

Arnold: 00:22:49

Okay. Okay. So we're going to take a break. This is really good discussion, Mark.

I think we're washing off some of the dirt on the windshield so we can see clearly about what's going on. But we're going to come back to this. This is Arnold Stricker with Mark Langston of St. Louis and Tune.

Don't go away for our second portion of this particular conversation, the United States has a strong tradition of welcoming newcomers and refugees.

The welcome Corps is a new service opportunity for Americans inspired to welcome those seeking freedom and safet and in turn, help strengthen their own communities. Welcome Corps is a public private partnership that is inspired by what Americans represent to so many around the world, a beacon of hope and refuge.

-: 9090

-: 9090

At Better Rate Mortgage, we open the door to so much more. Whether you're purchasing your first home or taking cash out to make your dream home even dreamier, our door is open. Come on in and get started.

-: 3293

etterratemortgage.com MMLS ID: 240133

They are both immigration attorneys and we're talking about the what I want to call, I hate to use the word crisis, it's so often misused, but actually this is probably a good use of it. The maybe I should say the misuse of immigration law that's going on in our country or I don't know how to describe what's going on in our country.

Mark: 00:25:11

A mess. What? I don't want to say a mess, but it's a mess. I don't know where to start with it. It seems like some of these laws, though, should be laws.

I hate saying it politicized as much as it gets politicized.

I'm not sure why we can't just, like, all come together and agree, here's how we're going to do this and move forward and then maybe adjust it as we go along and make it better or make it more efficient. But it seems like there's these radical shifts in the immigration laws and how I'm singing to the choir here.

We're a country of immigrants where it seems like it's been lost in translation with me lately. These are people, human beings. I don't know. Just I'm at a loss.

Arnold: 00:25:58

It's interesting. We've gone to governing by presidential decree. We've gone to governing by executive order rather than I'm going to get in the soapbox here.

Rather than Congress actually legislating and doing their thing. And Kaitlyn talked about Congress enacted this law. Congress funded this law. It is the law.

Mark: 00:26:19

And if and I don't feel like Congress is stepping up right now either. And that's part of the big issue, too. Checks, imbalances are just you look last.

Arnold: 00:26:28

Year before the election, when both sides of the aisle had agreed upon an immigration plan and an immigration bill, and yet the current President Trump went before he was, before the election, said, no, I really don't want to do that. And the Republicans backed away from that particular plan because he didn't want to give any credit to the then administration.

ens Enemies act is the act of: 1798

It's a wartime authority that allows the president to detain or deport the natives and citizens of an enemy nation. It permits the president to target these immigrants without a hearing and based only on their country of birth or citizenship.

voked three times, the War of: 1812

And the law was a key authority behind detentions, expulsions and restrictions in World War II 1 and 2 targeting German, Austria, Hungarian, Japanese and Italian immigrants based solely on their ancestry. And it's best known for its role in the Japanese internment which took place here in California in the state of California. I don't know.

My, my head is spinning. Here is, I guess, a question I'll throw out to both of you. And it deals with Congress. What can Congress do to tighten up these things?

Or do they want to do this? Or is it all so politicized that we cannot do anything to really come together?

And as Mark said, let's all sit down at the table and let's straighten things out to provide legal immigration because we are a country of immigrants. I'll let either one of you.

David: 00:28:31

That's a very big question.

There is a lot of legal immigration that still is going on despite all of the other activities that have been taking place that are stretching the bounds of what executive authority are. As has been observed, there's a lot of things that have been done that aren't following the due process of law.

So there is still legal immigration happening and hopefully will continue to happen. What happens in Congress, and I'm no expert on this, is that there's competing interests, as there often are on issues.

And it's the question of whether or not we want a humane immigration system that facilitates people coming to the United States or whether we want an immigration system that is punitive, that aims to remove people from the United States and prevent people from coming into the United States.

A lot of immigration laws over history have been to prevent people from coming into the United States, ways to restrict people from coming into the United States. But despite that, there's been a lot of efforts to allow people to come into the United States and set up some processes and procedures for that.

You've mentioned the most recent immigration bill that the current president tanked. Even before he was president, there was a lot of border protection issues in that.

There was also an increase in the number of legal immigrants who can become permanent residents in that bill as well. So there was a balancing of interests, of various interests.

Not everybody was happy with that bill, but it addressed many issues that were very pertinent. It was bipartisan. But you're right, the desire was not to give any victory and to keep immigration as a hot button issue.

And one of the reasons for increasing the number of legal immigration immigrants. I should have mentioned this, and I think this was important for the listeners to know.

There is a limit on the number of people who can become permanent residents every year. For instance, for employment based immigration categories, it's about 140,000 people a year.

So There are many more people who are in the pipeline for doing that. So they have to wait long periods of time before they can become permanent residents.

Because there's a limit on that some countries, and those limits are per country. And therefore there's people from countries who are waiting a long time to become permanent residents even though they're approved.

One of the things in the bill from last year was at least a modest increase in those numbers. There's also a limit on the number of family based immigrants who can come in every year can become permanent residents.

It's just a little over 200,000 people.

So one of the, one of the things that happens because of these limitations is it incentivizes people who want to be here in the United States to find other ways to come into the United States instead of making it again, instead of making it more easy, easier and more welcoming to be coming to the United States because of these limitations and because some of these harsh procedures. It incentivizes people to find different ways to come into the United States.

Arnold: 00:31:47

I would also say it incentivizes certain portions of government to get people in for certain amounts of money. That is the gold card.

Mark: 00:31:56

Yeah.

Arnold: 00:31:57

Where if you pay $5 million, you can become a citizen. So I didn't know our citizenship was up for sale. Sale. Especially go to the front of the line if you've got money.

And David, I appreciate you saying that because that was one of the things you said that Congress could up the number of people coming in and make it a little more palatable based upon times change. And so you have to go with the waves.

When you were talking about that, I was thinking of Ellis island and how people used to either go into Baltimore or Ellis island and then they had us. They had to get a physical check. They had to have a mental capacity check.

They had all these checks and they couldn't go on to the next station if they were sick or they had some of these diseases. It was to prevent that kind of thing happening. And now it's just a crazy hot mess. Caitlin, about the Aliens Alien Energy Enemies Act.

Caitlin: 00:32:48

Yeah. So again, this has not been used since World War II or hasn't been invoked since World War II.

I think the one thing that just puzzles me is how this act can be invoked at this period of time when Congress has not declared war on any group or country.

Again, that is one of the prerequisites to invoking this act and taking away someone's liberty, which is what it allows to intern them, to detain them. To deport them. And that act requires an act of Congress. That act is being used.

Without that, we are not currently at war with any country or group that I'm aware of.

Arnold: 00:33:39

And is that because the President has invoked. I'm looking for it here in my.

David: 00:33:44

He's declared an invasion.

Arnold: 00:33:46

Okay.

David: 00:33:46

But just unilaterally declared that there's an invasion.

Arnold: 00:33:49

Okay. Okay.

David: 00:33:50

And that there's also a declaration that there's a crisis at the southern border that constitutes an invasion. And based upon this decree. And as you pointed out, we are beginning to see a government by decree, which is what we had, a revolution.

That's what we came out of 250 years ago, is that no rules are made just by decree. There's a process, but there has been a decree that there's an invasion.

And based upon this finding, the decree that there's an invasion, invoking the Aliens Enemies act, even though there is no declaration of war. That is one of the. That's the supposed arguable legal basis for. For invoking the Aliens Enemies Act.

And therefore the President can do whatever the president wants to do in terms of deporting people. Yeah, that. That is. That has been challenged.

Arnold: 00:34:46

Okay, that's what I was going to say.

David: 00:34:47

And has been challenged in the pipeline. And right now, if I'm remembering correctly, at this point, the merits of that have not been determined.

There's been at least four, I think federal court judges, district court judges have said this is nonsense. This law on its face does not apply. Unfortunately, there's been one federal court judge who said it does. So really. So that's moving.

But everybody agrees, even if that law applies, that the people who are affected by it are entitled to due process. That is notice and a chance for an argument and hearing about whether or not they should be deported. Even the Supreme Court has said that.

So it remains to be seen whether or not this administration will follow, will obey that order about requiring due process and individual hearings for people who are being challenged by the Aliens Enemies Act. There's also another one that's happened under the. With the current.

ere's a law on the books from: 1952

tion law was reformed back in: 1952

Arnold: 00:36:21

That's pretty broad.

David: 00:36:22

It is pretty broad. And it has been used now by.

By Secretary of State Marco Rubio to deport or withdraw permanent residency from, or claim to be withdrawing permanent residency from students. And it's going to be aimed at other people, speech and other things, again, without any due process.

Just saying I have found this and therefore I'm doing this and that. It opens the door. And it's. As a lot of people concerned, and rightly, especially those who care about civil liberties, this is just the beginning of.

It's easy to target the other. It's either to target the foreigners, it's easy to target people who, you know, who, who are. Who are here temporarily, but that's not.

A lot of people are concerned and rightly, that this is just the beginning of taking away rights and due process in general. But in general, but it's showing up in the immigration world right now.

Arnold: 00:37:15

Caitlin, how do your clients respond to all of this? I imagine some of them are extremely frightened. Concerned is probably not strong enough. What are they saying and how are.

Caitlin: 00:37:27

You counseling them at this point? The one thing that I'm saying is if they ask me, am I at risk? Unfortunately, I'm telling everyone yes.

Whether you are a permanent resident and have legal status here or don't, unfortunately, I can't guarantee that you will not be picked up or deported. I think I just want to kind of piggyback on what we were talking about with due process.

And one of the basic things about due process is that it is given to every person, regardless of how you entered, what your legal status is. And really what I boil down due process to is the right to confront your accuser.

So I'm going to say that you committed a crime, you stole something from me, but I'm going to deport you before you have a chance to say, I wasn't even there. And I think that, to me, it harkens back to British rule. Right. The ability to confront your accuser before a jury of your peers.

And that, I think, is something that is at stake right now. And I don't know if a lot of people understand what that means, due process and who gets it. And do only citizens get due process?

No, everyone has the right to confront their accuser.

Arnold: 00:38:55

Anyone who's in the country.

Caitlin: 00:38:56

Correct.

Arnold: 00:38:56

Because you're in the borders of the United States of America, you are entitled.

Caitlin: 00:39:00

To the right to confront your accuser and not just be deported. Now, the follow up to that is, I think the government is moving swiftly.

So I've had clients who've been picked up, put into expedited deportation, and within 14 to 30 days are deported. The problem with that is they don't have a right to confront their accuser. They haven't had the opportunity to have due process.

And unfortunately, the position is they're gone now. There's nothing we can do.

Arnold: 00:39:35

Which was indicative of the individual who got sent to the prison. And correct me if I'm wrong, he was a United States citizen. He was.

Caitlin: 00:39:46

If you're talking about Kilmar Abrego Garcia, he was not a U.S. citizen.

Arnold: 00:39:52

Okay.

Caitlin: 00:39:52

He was here. He had a protection against deportation.

And essentially what happened is that court, that judge's order preventing him from being deported was violated.

Arnold: 00:40:05

It got overruled.

Caitlin: 00:40:06

Essentially, yes. And the position was we did. We made a mistake. We sent him to the wrong place. We shouldn't have done that. But there's nothing we can do now.

He's in another country.

Arnold: 00:40:18

Yeah. It just makes my head explode, Mark.

Mark: 00:40:24

I don't know where to start. I would say thank goodness there's folks.

Arnold: 00:40:28

Yeah.

If you see this happening this way to people who are in our country legally and some who obviously who are not here legally, but who are here legally, who have some status and protections, what makes you think it's not going to happen to those who were naturally born here and who've lived here their entire life? Now, you may think that's not ever going to happen. Hey, read some history. Read history. If you haven't read history, read it.

Mark: 00:40:53

I know there's a few bad apples, maybe, that slip in once in a while, and I don't think anyone would fight against the idea of doing something about that.

But the people that I come into contact, especially here at the International Institute where our studios are, they are big contributors to our society.

Arnold: 00:41:10

Yes.

Mark: 00:41:11

They make contributions that normal Americans that were born here just don't do. And I know that's a. I don't know. It's even hard for me to even talk like that.

But they are contributing citizens to our way of life, and we're rushing to judgment. That's what I think it is. Okay. We're going to get them out of here within two weeks. That's just wrong. You're right.

Everyone needs an opportunity to face their accuser, and it's just being taken away from them. I don't know what you say. I'm only one voice. I'll take it to the ballot box, of course, but, boy, it almost seems impossible.

Arnold: 00:41:49

This is for both of you. There is the timeline prior to this for people to get a green card approved or an H1B or all that Kind of stuff.

There was probably a period of time which was would maybe I'm going to call normal, whatever that is. And it's probably different for different states maybe, or different areas. But now has that time been elongated?

I know, Caitlin, you talked about a green card. Do people, what is exactly explain to people what a green card actually is? They think it's like this car they carry around that's green.

Caitlin: 00:42:20

Well, it used to be green, which is where the name comes from.

David: 00:42:23

Now it's a shade. Now it's a shade of green.

Caitlin: 00:42:25

There's hints of green, right? There's hints of green, yes. So the green card is basically it's called the lawful permanent resident.

It's a card given to people who have the ability to remain here indefinitely unless some other. They're essentially immigrants.

So I divide between nonimmigrants, students, tourists, people who are coming here for a limited period of time, immigrants who are people who can stay here, have the authorization to work, can come and go internationally, come back and forth, and then can ultimately apply for citizenship if they meet the qualifications. Non immigrants don't have that option. They cannot apply for citizenship.

So as far as the lawful permanent resident, it is a long term status and a permanent as lawful permanent resident. So it is typically given. So family based. We talked about employment based, we talked about asylum.

So someone who wins their asylum case and it is approved, they are eligible to apply for a green card. Refugees, after one year of presence within the United States are eligible to apply for and obtain lawful permanent residence.

So there's a variety of ways to get the lawful permanent residence, whether it's family based, employment based, humanitarian based, like asylum or refugee, those types of options. But it is a long term.

Arnold: 00:44:00

And you were saying lawful permanent resident.

Caitlin: 00:44:03

Correct.

Arnold: 00:44:03

And our government has deported lawful permanent residents.

Caitlin: 00:44:09

Yes. So essentially what the.

And this is what's happening across the board with a variety of different statuses, whether they are temporary statuses like TPS or humanitarian parole or humanitarian temporary entry permanent residence, they are ending that status, saying we have the authority to basically end you. In the case of Venezuelans, they are saying it's due to trander Aragua based on their nationality.

Those people are essentially having their status ended. And I think we talked about how we're deporting criminals. Right. We want the violent gang members out of our country. Yeah, we can all get behind that.

Arnold: 00:44:52

Right.

Caitlin: 00:44:53

The issue is we're creating criminals. And when I say we, I don't mean me, the government. When you end someone's status that immediately. Right. So People received a letter.

In one week, your status will end. You must leave. That. That makes them a criminal for purposes of being picked up, detained and deported.

Arnold: 00:45:14

That's criminal.

Mark: 00:45:15

It's cruel.

Arnold: 00:45:16

That's criminal.

Mark: 00:45:17

What's being done, Kaitlyn, I don't understand how they just take that away. You have a year to be here on your visa and it's. No, we're just gonna pull that out. I just. That's just. I don't get it. I don't get it.

Caitlin: 00:45:30

I have an example, if you wouldn't mind me giving an example of someone here in our community.

Arnold: 00:45:34

Yes.

Caitlin: 00:45:35

That this happened to a client of the Institute. They were living here in the city of St. Louis. They were from Venezuela. They went.

United States in November of: 2024

For a temporary period of time, he had applied for asylum. He was driving out to St Charles to pick up a birthday cake for his four year old son at a Venezuelan bakery.

On his way out of the parking lot of that bakery, he was T boned by another car. So hit in the driver's side door. He was. The police were called and came. He was arrested and taken to detention. I tried to reach him in St.

Louis, but within eight hours he was on a bus to Springfield, Missouri.

He was then on a bus to Oklahoma because again, like you mentioned, there are not enough detention centers that can hold all the people that are being arrested at the moment. So I could not prove that he had his asylum. I went down to the ICE office down here by enterprise center, tried to get through to someone.

Nobody would tell me where he was. There was no contact information. Finally, he gets to Oklahoma.

The judge sets his case for trial in four weeks, and he's going to trial on his asylum case. His wife and son are here in the United States, are here in St. Louis, and we were unable to get sufficient evidence from Venezuela.

The judge basically said, you don't have any statements from his attorneys in Venezuela, from people who he had been previously arrested for participating in a peaceful protest against the Maduro government. He spent 21 days in jail for that. We had evidence of the jail, but basically the court said, but you got out, so you can go home.

We provided testimony that every time they checked his id, they said, oh, looks like you like to hit police. You like to violate the rules.

So eventually they said, we have to go, we can't stay under this government and not be able to express our opinions and our dissent.

So unfortunately, the judge who denies 98% of the asylum cases before him found that he did not meet the burden to establish asylum and he will be deported. I think he's on his way to Texas right now where he will be put on a plane.

We have asked, he told me aside afterwards, he said, please don't let them send me to El Salvador. I'd rather take my chances in Venezuela. At least I have family there and know people. If I go to El Salvador, I'll never come out. I have asked.

The court order is that he's to be removed to Venezuela. There is no guarantee the next. He could be just placed on the next flight out, which could be El Salvador, could be Venezuela, because.

Arnold: 00:48:57

And when he goes to these countries, is it to go to prison or just to be released off the plane and you're on your own?

Caitlin: 00:49:03

We don't know.

Mark: 00:49:05

Unbelievable.

Caitlin: 00:49:07

We don't know. We expect that he'll never leave the airport, regardless of where he goes, because on a deportation flight.

I think the government of Venezuela is not welcoming these people with open arms. They are typically people who have had issues with the government previously and expressed dissent.

And so we believe there's a political prison in Caracas where most of them are being held. One other example, just to mention that people might understand. I don't know if people are aware of 90 Day Fiance, the TV show.

I don't watch it personally, but it is a reality show, Shameless, that goes on. I'm not plugging it, but this, the 90 day fiance is basically, you can enter the United States, apply to come as a fiance, which is a specific visa.

,: 2024

So within the 90 days.

Mark: 00:50:30

Sounds like it, yeah.

Caitlin: 00:50:32

90 days. They technically, he had until December 15 to stay in the US or to get married. Then he needed to adjust his status.

So you need to submit an application to get the green card, which he is entitled to.

They were working with an online legal service company who told them you have a year because the application for Adjustment of Status is currently 24 pages long, requires 3 years of tax returns, W2s, verification of the wife's employment, verification of all kinds of different information, and his birth certificate with English translation. It's an Involved process. Okay. So he submitted. They were working with an attorney on that process.

On February 19th, they received, I'm sorry, early February, about like the 10th, they received a call from ICE that said, did you get married? And the wife said, yes, we're married. And they said, well, you haven't filed anything with uscis. And the wife said, you're right.

We're working on that application. We have an attorney. They told us we have time and we're Preparing it now. February 19th, they went to his home, her home, their home.

They shared together, put him in handcuffs, took him to prison, also in Oklahoma. So over an hour from the family, their home, and he's still in prison.

Arnold: 00:51:59

My gosh.

Caitlin: 00:52:00

So he has never been convicted of a crime. He is not a violent person. He entered legally and yet he is at risk of being deported even though he did everything correct.

Arnold: 00:52:13

Before we, that's unbelievable. And before we, we close, I want to, I want you to all think about, give me a 30 second thing about immigration. Okay?

You're just going to boil your thoughts together like you're going to talk to somebody out there. But there is a reality show producer has pitched a show to Homeland Security based on immigrants competing for expedited legal status.

And it's kind of.

They'll start at Ellis island and then take a train to a different location on every episode and complete various challenges that are all quintessentially American, such as working on a car assembly line in Detroit. And it'll be respectful and safe, and it's the biggest loser for immigration. So I just want to let you know that this kind of stuff's out there.

David, 30 second blurb on your thoughts here.

David: 00:53:02

I think I had mentioned it earlier.

It's really a question of whether we want a humane immigration system that facilitates people coming to the United States and recognizes the dignity and the contributions of immigrants, or whether we want a punitive immigration system that deports people, criminalizes people and prevents people from coming to the United States. And that's a choice we can make. And I lean towards the humane, facilitating, and I think Congress has to be involved in this.

I think we all have to be involved in understanding. And the other concern is, I think I'm just about 30 seconds.

What we were talking about before, what's happening to immigrants that's not following the law, not due process, just by decree, could happen to everybody.

Arnold: 00:53:50

Caitlin?

Caitlin: 00:53:51

Yeah, I think similar, my comment is similar, but what I'd really like people to know is what is actually going on and who is actually being arrested. I see clients.

I have hundreds of clients right now, and there's not a single one that I would not have a meal with or learn more about their culture or have them assist in some way or have a job here. And I think what I really want people to know is we are not deporting criminals. We are creating criminals and then deporting them.

And I really, truly believe that is not what most people want. That is not what most people voted for. We can all get behind deporting violent criminals, but these are not violent criminals.

And I think that as an America, we are a humane country. And we have never acted punitively towards any specific we have. But that is not our purpose. That is not our who we are.

And this is, this, I believe, marks a fundamental change in the United States and its perception around the world. And I want people to understand what's going on and then be able to take action.

Arnold: 00:55:15

Thank you both for being here. David and Caitlin, thank you for coming into the studio and talking about this very serious issue. Mark, that's all for this hour.

Mark: 00:55:22

Come back, come back.

Arnold: 00:55:23

Yeah, this is. This could. Wow.

Mark: 00:55:26

We could do so much more to.

Arnold: 00:55:27

Talk about many shows on this particular thing.

If you've enjoyed this episode, you can listen to additional shows@stlintune.com consider leaving a review on our website, Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, or your preferred podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and continue to grow.

I want to thank Bob Berthicel for our theme music, our sponsor, Better Rate Mortgage. Our guests, David Harris and Caitlin o' Connor, co host, Mark Langston.

We also thank and folks, we thank you for being a part of our community of curious minds. St. Louis in tune is a production of Motif Media Group and the US Radio Network.

Remember to keep seeking, keep learning, walk worthy, and let your light shine. For St. Louis in Tune, I'm Arnold Stricker, SA.