Lincoln, Douglas, and the Race That Changed History!

Arnold: 00:00:00

Maybe you know the story about the tortoise and the hare and maybe you don't, but it also deals with some historical figures and we're going to talk about that on St. Louis in Tune. Welcome to St.

Louis in Tune and thank you for joining us for fresh perspectives on issues and events with experts, community leaders and everyday people who make a difference in shaping our society and world. I'm Arnold Stricker along with co host Mark Langston. Mark was on assignment last week. Mark, welcome back.

Mark: 00:00:41

It's great to be back. Great to be anywhere at my age.

Arnold: 00:00:44

And the assignment was pretty good, wasn't it?

Jan: 00:00:45

It was.

Mark: 00:00:46

I was with Johnny Rabbit. Dare I tell you his real name? Ron Elz. Yes, that's right.

Arnold: 00:00:54

And Waskely Wabbit

Mark: 00:00:55

Yeah, he is. He's a funny guy. He was the first very, I think there were two Johnny rabbits at KXOK. And of course, we're celebrating 86 years on the air in St.

Louis broadcasting from the studio. Yeah. And he was, he was the first Johnny Rabbit to be there. And he left. When he left KXOK, he started KSHE95.

Arnold: 00:01:16

Oh, I didn't know that.

Mark: 00:01:17

Yeah. If you knew. Yeah.

Arnold: 00:01:18

Wow.

Mark: 00:01:19

And I worked with him at WIL Radio as he was Johnny Rabbit there. And he never tells anyone how old he is.

Arnold: 00:01:27

He's old enough.

Mark: 00:01:29

He is. I know. It's like how old are you now? Chatting. Oh, he won't tell you. It's just the funniest thing I know.

Arnold: 00:01:36

Like several days over 29.

Mark: 00:01:38

That's it. That's it. How many times have you been 29? So it was. He is a historian. We should have him on the program. I think he knows a lot about St. Louis. A lot.

I think he's even written a couple of books about St. Louis. He's just a wealth of information when it comes to that. And a fine fellow, too. He's doing things. That one last thing.

It's going to take the whole show. Talk about Johnny Rabbit. He's doing some things at the history museum coming up and he does that quite regularly.

Arnold: 00:02:06

St. Louis discussions.

Mark: 00:02:07

Yes. That's what it all is about. Okay, that's all I got.

Arnold: 00:02:10

So, folks, if you want to check that out, I'm sure you can go to the history museum website and I know under their events they have a calendar of those kinds of things that take place there. So check that out. We're glad that you have joined us today. We want to thank our sponsor, Better Rate Mortgage for their support of the show. Better.

You can listen to previous shows@stlintune.com Please continue to help us grow by leaving a review on our website, Apple Podcast or your preferred podcast platform. Our return to civility today is it's very applicable because in the news recently there was a situation involving a parent and a coach.

So it's show respect to coaches and referees at children's sporting events.

And we're recording this at the end of April right now, and baseball season's getting underway and I'm sure there's a lot of other things that are going on, sporting events for youth, but these men and women are often volunteers. Give them the benefit of the doubt. They are doing the best they can and are trying to be as fair as they can under the circumstances.

And when people are yelling at their kids to do X, Y and Z and then yelling at the coaches to do X, Y and Z and why isn't my kid playing and then yelling at the referees or the umpires to do X, Y and Z, it just is a stressful, not a fun time. It's a stressful time.

Mark: 00:03:37

Yeah.

Arnold: 00:03:37

So.

Mark: 00:03:38

Never got that.

Arnold: 00:03:38

Why never did, either.

Mark: 00:03:40

Come on, we're here to have fun with the kids and you're going to yell at somebody like that?

Arnold: 00:03:45

My kids got to win. They're the best. They're the best thing since Jackie Robinson or, or Roberto Clemente or Stan Musial or.

Jan: 00:03:52

It's a disease.

Arnold: 00:03:54

Yeah.

Jan: 00:03:54

And it's been with us for quite a while.

Mark: 00:03:57

Yeah. That's a good way to put it. A disease. It really is.

Arnold: 00:04:00

So show respect to coaches and referees at children's sporting events. Our guest here is going to tell us a little bit about the historical tortoise and the hare, and it's not what you think it is.

Jan Jacobi's always been a teacher. He's also an author. For 50 years, he served as middle school head and taught English at three schools.

He currently teaches courses at Washington University's Lifelong Learning Program. He developed his interest in Abraham Lincoln by taking his students on field trips to Springfield, Illinois.

His first two Lincoln books, Lincoln in Springfield and Young Lincoln, both won Nautilus and Best of Illinois History awards. His mission is to give young adult readers a human portrait of Abraham Lincoln. Jan, welcome back to St. Louis in Tune.

Jan: 00:04:42

Thank you, Arnold. It's great to be here.

Arnold: 00:04:44

Who are the people involved in the tortoise and the hare race from your opinion as it relates to Abraham Lincoln?

Jan: 00:04:50

First of all, Abraham Lincoln loved Aesop's fables. He loved them as a boy into his adulthood as well. In this particular case, Lincoln is the tortoise. He waddles along, plods along.

And Douglass is the hare who rushes to the front and comes a cropper.

Arnold: 00:05:11

And these guys had known each other for a long time.

Jan: 00:05:14

n Douglas debates, of course,: 1858

know each other in the middle: 1830

And they gave parties, and the young men, the young rising men, would meet the young women who'd come in from the country to be in Springfield to catch a husband. And Douglass and Lincoln were party boys together.

Arnold: 00:05:51

And they both partied for Mary Todd.

Jan: 00:05:55

That's correct. That's correct. Yep. Douglas is very interested in Mary Todd. They made a lovely couple on the dance floor. Lincoln was a clunky dancer.

In fact, he said to Mary Todd at one point, I want to dance with you in the worst way. And she said, you did?

Arnold: 00:06:17

That's hilarious.

Jan: 00:06:18

That is pretty funny.

Mark: 00:06:19

That's pretty funny.

Arnold: 00:06:20

I know your books.

Jan: 00:06:23

Okay, There you go.

Arnold: 00:06:26

Your books are generally suited for what age level. Now, I know you talk about that. It's like a crossover kind of deal.

Jan: 00:06:33

Yes. Thanks so much for asking me that.

They started the young Lincoln was really for middle school on into early high school, because I have been a middle schooler. I was a middle school teacher for all my life.

But with Lincoln and Springfield and with Lincoln and Douglas, it's become more what's called a crossover, which means it's also something that adults can appreciate as well. It's not that the language gets more complicated, although this book has Lincoln's own words in it, but it's that the story deepens. Lincoln's.

Lincoln's life becomes more complex. And I would say probably for Lincoln and Springfield and Lincoln and Douglass, it tilts more towards high school.

But a very good middle school reader could be fine with the books.

Arnold: 00:07:22

And it's historical fiction.

Jan: 00:07:23

Yes. Now, on the other hand, the historical part of it is as accurate as I can make it. The fiction is.

It's written first person, as if Abraham Lincoln is telling the story himself. And that, of course, is fictional. For instance, in here I have a piece where Lincoln and Douglas actually talked to each other.

And of course, nobody knows, number one, whether it happened or number two, what they would have said to each other. But I think I can speculate about that. The fellow who did the series on the crown was towards the end.

There were parts of it that in all likelihood didn't happen historically.

But what he said is, I'm so true to the characters that I've created, situations that I know could have happened, and that's the way I feel about my books.

Arnold: 00:08:10

Yeah. And the research that you've done with this very involved.

Jan: 00:08:16

Yes. Now, it's not to be groundbreaking research. I'm not in somebody's trunk in the attic or there.

I'm working with the material that's already been unearthed. And there are 10,000 books about Abraham Lincoln. But so I do work with, in many cases, primary but secondary sources.

And then in the secondary sources, I'll find the footnote for the primary source, and then I'll go back to that.

Arnold: 00:08:41

Yeah.

And you have your notes in the back here, and you acknowledge the individuals, many of, like you said, who have written pretty exclusively on Abraham Lincoln.

And you're drawing from their material, and you're just gathering all together and making, like, making a cake, putting it in a big pot, mixing it together, and you're adding your own flavor there.

Jan: 00:09:03

That's a good metaphor. I will say that I want those scholars and friends who've written these things about Lincoln before to get full credit for.

There's no doubt about that. And in some cases, I want my reader to know that Lincoln, when something comes up in the dialogue, sometimes it's something Lincoln did say.

Arnold: 00:09:22

Right? Yeah. Because you do put quotations and then you do also put your notes.

Jan: 00:09:26

Yes. So that you could say, wow, that guy really knows how to write dialogue. Half of it is probably.

Arnold: 00:09:35

That's good. Now, this is the third of five, right?

Jan: 00:09:40

There will be five. My publisher, Reedy Press, is pushing me now to move ahead on four books, four and five, and I'd like to do that.

So these books generally take three years, but I think I may be able to get book four out in two years and book five out in two years. So hopefully in another four, four years, the series will be done.

Arnold: 00:09:58

So let's put, for lack of better words, let's put bookends on this book.

Jan: 00:10:03

Oh, boy.

Arnold: 00:10:03

Let's start with. Give a brief discussion of 1 and 2, the ones that the awards came from. We'll talk about this one. And then what you foresee four and five being.

Because this is the transition as he gets to the White House.

Jan: 00:10:17

Yes, it is, Arnold. In fact, the title that I originally had for that book, which I've gotten, of the three books, I got one title. The publisher now has two.

But the one on this One I wanted to call was the Transformation of Lincoln, which of course is what happened. But Josh thought that Lincoln and Douglass and I do like that. I think it's a very clear title. So thank you for the question.

The first two books, Young Lincoln is the early years in Kentucky, teen years in Indiana and then when he first comes to Illinois. Second half of Young Lincoln is the new Salem experience. Lincoln in Springfield is he comes to Springfield then to be a lawyer, continue in politics.

And then the half of the book is really about his relationship with Mary Todd and also his relationship with Joshua Speed, who is his, I think he's probably the best friend he ever had in his life. And Speed and Lincoln counsel each other about young women. So that's a fun part of Lincoln and Springfield here.

t as well. This one begins in: 1849

He just did not make a name for himself and in fact in some ways really made a name against himself. He was so he was not re nominated by the party. This all has to do with the Mexican War.

Lincoln came out against the President Polk and the Mexican War, which was not a good decision because he was brave to do it.

irst third of it is the years: 1849

en ultimately the election of: 1860

Arnold: 00:12:32

So we're going to talk more about that. Give us a little hint about how you've scoped out. Four and five.

Jan: 00:12:39

Good. I'm still playing with that. David McCulloch and I know David McCulloch, but David McCulloch had the idea that this material has to marinate.

And while my publisher wants me to push ahead, it's still marinating. And I think for four and five what it's looking is. I think what I will do is take some very high points and then make those.

I don't think I'll go chronological through all the things.

The President, for instance, the Fort Sumter when he's elected president, the first day in the office, there's a letter on his desk from Major Anderson saying we can't defend this place. What are we going to do. And so that crisis which lasts for about four weeks, tests him.

And you also see, we see how he's a funny word here, but how inept he was in some ways. But how could he not be in the first month or two. But he comes through that weathers it.

And then I think the second thing, that second chapter, second where I moved to is the Battle of Manassas and that's the first battle. And that's where he really and the boys come back into Washington, are wounded and are dead.

I think he has a deeper sense of what now this is going to be.

And the thing that's so important in him as president is that the deepening of him, the growth in his character and almost transcending human bounds in some senses he becomes a prophet, he becomes a messiah to some.

Arnold: 00:14:14

Yeah. Because you can read about transformations. Probably not. It might be too strong of a word.

You can see his thought process and his character and his attitude towards slavery. Everybody thinks he was anti slavery. He really was not at the beginning. And you can see this transformation now. In contrast with Douglas. He was.

Jan: 00:14:39

Yes, good point. And in the debates, for instance, and the often debate Douglas, in fact, it's not a bad thing just to read what he said, which is really quite.

Arnold: 00:14:49

Short here and is actually while you're finding that. This is Arnold Stricker with Mark Langston of St. Louis in Tune, we're talking to Jan Jacobi. He's author of the third book of five.

There's four and five to come out. It's called Lincoln and Douglas. It's published by Reedy Press. So you can go to reedypress.com to get a copy of the book.

Jan: 00:15:10

Thank you, Arnold. These are Douglas' words in the closing argument at I hold that the signers of the Declaration of Independence had no reference to Negroes at all.

When they declared all men to be created equal. They did not mean the Negro, nor the savage Indians, nor the Fiji Islanders, nor any barbarous race. They were speaking of white men.

They alluded to men of European birth and European descent, to white men and to none others when they declared that doctrine. I hold that this government was established on the white basis.

It was established by white men for the benefit of white men and their posterity forever and should be administered by white men and none others. Now that Douglass holds to that all the way through. All the way through. And Lincoln grows into his closing words at Alton.

eally been. He's gone this in: 1837

But in: 1858

Arnold: 00:16:30

It's interesting.

When I found out that Douglass was born in Vermont and then went to New Hampshire, we did a show on Thaddeus Stevens and we spoke to the author about that book. And Stevens was from that same vicinity up there.

I know Thaddeus Stevens was a little older than Douglass, but the fact that there are two different polarities of going on, and they come from the same region.

Jan: 00:17:01

It's funny because as I learned more about Douglass, that I wanted to like him. He's charming. If he were in the room here, he'd be entertaining us. He was a political genius. He could just move coalitions around like nobody else.

And again, it probably. If it hadn't been slavery hadn't been around, he would have been one of our greatest presidents. There's no doubt about it.

But so to me, it's this horrible blind spot. As you. As I read to you there, he's clearly a racist to the nth degree. And I had a Lincoln friend who, a couple of them, one black and one white.

And to them both, I said that I'm just so upset about Douglass racism. And both of them said to me, jan, they all were. They all were. And that makes Lincoln's baby steps look that much more heroic.

Arnold: 00:17:56

That's an excellent point. That's really an excellent point. Because I think our perspective, looking back from what we've read, is that, oh, there was this kind of.

The north was anti slavery, the south was pro slavery. And that's far from the truth.

Jan: 00:18:08

Yeah. Particularly in the war itself with the soldiers. He's got a problem.

He wants to move from preserving the Union, which is the war aim for the first two years, to freeing the slaves. But his soldiers, at least in the first into the second year, aren't with him on that. They're not fighting to free the slaves.

Now, ultimately, they do move that way. And ultimately one of the things that moves it all along are the black troops. At the end of the war, there are 200,000 black troops. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's. Wow, that's. That's very important.

Arnold: 00:18:40

Who do you see was instrumental in helping Lincoln transform his thought? I don't think it was Mary Todd. I know. Yeah.

ybody that he ran against. In: 1860

I don't want to use the word transformation of thought of where he was to where he ended up, which ultimately got him assassinated.

Jan: 00:19:08

Yes. I think he does it himself. It's himself.

And what will happen, and this actually is a message for young people, is that you'll see Lincoln as he evolves, becoming more and more alone. You can't imagine anybody more alone than President of the United States. But this goes back into his. The first two books that I have.

One of the things Lincoln learned and you do on the frontier was to be alone. And he wasn't uncomfortable with it. Actually, I go around to schools today and I say to the kids, maybe 100, 150 of them in a room, put up your hand.

If you like to be alone, you get four or five hand. Now, remember, this is the Covid group, too. So I give that four or five. And there was one that I.

The school audience that about half the hands went up and I looked at them and I said, what do you do when you're alone? And they said, oh, we're on our phones. Of course they are. But in any event, because the word that I think applies to Lincoln here is solitude.

And in his solitude, he's learned to reflect, he's learned to process.

And I think in that, he just takes his experiences, what he's read, the people he's been read about and been talking to, and somehow in his time alone, he distills it all and is the person that. I think that's how it happened.

Arnold: 00:20:32

People may think, oh, you mentioned this is a middle school, high school read book. This is. Folks, this would be a great book just for fun as an adult. This would actually really be a good book for a book group.

Mark: 00:20:44

Oh, yeah.

Arnold: 00:20:44

And to sit down. It's a nice read. You get some historical background, you get some fiction, and it's a great discussion book.

Jan: 00:20:54

Yes. And in fact, I'm in a book club and will be doing it in the next week. Next week.

Arnold: 00:21:00

Oh, wow.

Jan: 00:21:00

Yeah.

Arnold: 00:21:01

Speaking of.

Jan: 00:21:04

That's right. But again, that's why I try and intrigue young people with Lincoln, because he's so much like them in some ways.

He goes through all sorts of difficulties, failures, and yet he just keeps. That's the Tortoise. And he's just so remarkable on so many levels.

Arnold: 00:21:22

I want to hit on that.

We're going to take a brief break, but I'd like to touch on that, Jan, because there's teachers who listen, there's parents who listen, there's, I'm sure there's some young adults who listen who are still in school of why Lincoln appeals to youngsters. And I think I want to touch on that when we come back to give those folks some insights a little bit.

And because there are some similarities, especially now in our we like to close ourselves off. This is Arnold Strick with Mark Langston of St. Luis and Tomb. We're talking to Jan Jacoby about his new book, Lincoln and Douglas.

And we're going to touch and delve into that quite a bit more after the break. Stay tuned. This is Arnold Stricker of St. Louis in tune on behalf of the Dred Scott Heritage Foundation.

In: 1857

,: 1868

The Dred Scott Heritage foundation is requesting a commemorative stamp to be issued from the US Postal Service to recognize and remember the heritage of this amendment by issuing a stamp with the likeness of the man Dred Scott. But we need your support and the support of thousands of people who would like to see this happen.

To achieve this goal, we ask you to download, sign and share the one page petition with others. To find the petition, please go to dredscottlives.org and click on the Dred Scott petition drive on the right side of the page.

On behalf of the Dred Scott Heritage foundation, this has been Arnold Stricker of St. Louis Intune. As strange as it may sound, at Better Rate Mortgage, we love talking to people about mortgages. Everyone in St.

Louis promises a better mortgage rate. But what you really need to turn that perfect house into your dream home is a better mortgage.

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-: 3293

This is Arnold Stricker with Mark Langston. We have Jan Jacobi in studio. He's talking about this new book published by Reedy Press. Lincoln, Ann Douglas and I wanted to read this.

It's a youth book. It's a high school book. It's an adult book.

Mark: 00:24:39

Yeah.

Arnold: 00:24:39

So if you're an adult and you're going, ah, it's a high school book, probably reads really easily. It's a great read. And I want to read something that Jan wrote at the back.

The hardest part of this book was to remember that I was writing for young adults. And some adults can't even read very well. So let's just put. I'll just leave it there.

em to know the history of the: 1850

But my experience is that they do best when they are called on to think about and reflect on life. Lincoln's story appeals to them. Before the break, I'd ask you that question. Why does this, and how does this appeal to youngsters?

Jan: 00:25:25

I think it's interesting. I was a middle school teacher for 50 years. I was a middle school principal for 30 years.

And I'll tell you, when I taught my classes and I taught classics and grammar and all that kind of stuff, but I would pitch my class to the 75th percentile. And I always felt that it brought along anybody who was lower than that and appeal to people at the top.

And so, in fact, I had one child, one young woman, who said at one point, Mr. Jacoby's class is actually a philosophy class. So when you're at school, when you're discussing.

Discussing things like Huck Finn and you're a seventh grader, eighth grader in Missouri, you gotta read Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn. How can you not read Mark Twain? And when Huck makes that agonizing decision to go against his society with the Fugitive Slave Law, to go against.

He's not a practicing religion person, but he does. That's such a religious society that he does feel that if he violates the law, he's going to hell. And so he makes that decision to save his friend.

And friendship is so huge for these kids. So I think you can approach them on that level. Now Lincoln is looking for a sense of purpose.

He senses that he really, as a young person, that there's something that he's called to do. I love the idea of vocation anyway, but so Lincoln is called and he's just not sure what it is. The second thing, though, is that he's an adolescent.

And adolescents sometimes have struggles with parents. Our children did with us. It's healthy. They're moving away from you. But Lincoln's tension with his father was. His father wanted him to be a farmer.

His father never believed that in education. He never thought that Lincoln should. In fact, when Lincoln wanted to better himself, his father took it defensively.

He thought, oh, you don't think I'm good enough, huh? And so I really think Lincoln's father never understood him. So tension with a parent is part of adolescence.

Lincoln had religious doubts early in his life. And kids are really on a spiritual, religious level. They.

They may be not going to church, they may, but they're looking at something beyond themselves. And so that's an appealing part of Lincoln. He loves his friends.

In young Lincoln, there is a moment when he caves to peer pressure, and it's like similar to what would happen if, say, a bunch of maybe early high school kids woke up one night and went to the woods with a couple six packs. That's the same kind of thing.

It wasn't alcohol, but it was actually killing a raccoon and then taking the skin of the raccoon and wrapping it around a dog. And then the dog was chewed to pieces. And his father, the dog was actually ratting on them for getting up at 2 in the morning.

So they grab it underneath and take it out there. Then they do this. And Lincoln abhorred cruelty to animals, but in a group, he doesn't stand up and say, we shouldn't do this.

So he caves to peer pressure. He loves his friends, but again, he also learns how to be alone.

It's in his early years, maybe, I'd say his teen years, that he gets his first tickles of feeling sad, melancholic, depressed. And when he feels that way, he goes for a walk in the woods and nature brings him out of it. Those were all parts of him that appeal to young people.

Arnold: 00:29:11

That's mark what the strength of these books is, getting even adults to identify. Because many adults have not come to a realization or a conclusion.

Things are left undone from childhood, from young adulthood, from being in their 20s or 30s. And when you can look at an individual like Abraham Lincoln, and read about him and see the similarities. It's not like you're reading a book that.

What was the book you mentioned? It's one of the famous Lincoln biographies books. It's by Doris Kearns.

Jan: 00:29:48

Oh, Team of Rivals.

Arnold: 00:29:50

Team of Rivals. It's not a Team of Rivals book. It's a book of reflection, really. And wow. He does that. Wow.

And so you have an opportunity to really get a glimpse into a personality from a different perspective.

Jan: 00:30:06

No, 100%.

And I think the thing is that for young people there can be exposed to that and find out that not only is it healthy, but it's essential to becoming a whole person.

Arnold: 00:30:17

Right. That's a good point. Now, you are going to be doing some book signings and I was surprised.

Mark: 00:30:25

You'Re moving to Springfield, Illinois for a while.

Arnold: 00:30:30

You're going to be tearing up 55 there. Actually, you could take the train up there.

Mark: 00:30:34

I did.

Arnold: 00:30:35

It stops right in the middle of town, right across the highway.

Jan: 00:30:38

I guess I could read all the way up.

Arnold: 00:30:40

Yeah.

Jan: 00:30:41

It's a lot cheaper too.

Arnold: 00:30:42

It is.

Mark: 00:30:43

Lincoln and Douglas. You could read on the train.

Arnold: 00:30:46

Yeah. So Jan's going to be at the Lincoln Home National Historic Site, a book signing. May 24, the 31st, June 7, June 21, June 28, July 5 and July 12.

He's going to be blazing a trail up there. And really, the train folks, if you live in St. Louis, get in the train. You could pick it up at Kirkwood.

You could pick it up downtown at Union Station. It's an hour and a half, two hours to get up to Springfield. They stop right there by the train station.

Jan: 00:31:17

Yeah, sure.

Arnold: 00:31:17

And it's funny because the train straddles this four lane road. Are we going to get hit here?

Jan: 00:31:22

What?

Arnold: 00:31:23

And. And it's not a very far walk to the Lincoln Home from there.

Jan: 00:31:27

Yeah, absolutely. The whole Lincoln sites, the museum, the old state capitol, the home are approximate.

Arnold: 00:31:34

Yeah. The Lincoln Museum is one of the best museums we've ever been to.

Jan: 00:31:38

It's only 20 years old too.

Arnold: 00:31:40

Yeah.

Mark: 00:31:41

Unbelievable job is.

Jan: 00:31:42

It's 20. Yeah.

Mark: 00:31:44

I had no idea.

Arnold: 00:31:45

We're gonna judge museums by that.

Mark: 00:31:47

I. Yeah.

Jan: 00:31:48

The building was designed by Gio obata. Yeah. So St. Louis architect. Yes.

Mark: 00:31:54

I'll be talking. So I. When I was a Cub Scout leader, we used to take the Cub Scouts by train up there and we'd have such a great time.

Arnold: 00:32:01

Yeah.

Mark: 00:32:02

One of our favorite trips. And that's one of my favorite presidential museums. I've been to a few.

Arnold: 00:32:07

It is.

Mark: 00:32:08

And it's a really Great. I haven't been to the Reagan one yet. That's pretty good. Yeah. But this was a real. I really enjoyed it. I've been there a couple of times.

Jan: 00:32:16

It's how I got started on all this. We took seventh graders from micds up there, and I just got hooked.

Mark: 00:32:23

Yeah.

Jan: 00:32:24

Particularly at New Salem. Interestingly, that's the reconstructed frontier village.

Mark: 00:32:30

Okay. Yeah.

Jan: 00:32:30

And you walk around there.

Mark: 00:32:31

Is that what it's called? Okay.

Jan: 00:32:32

Yeah. So I get a real feel. It's funny. As I drive up, I should take the train. You should. As I drive up, I've always.

As I get closer to Springfield and you're in the prairie there, I get a sense of him. I think he's a prairie person. I think he's deep, and I think he's broad, and I think the prairie really is where he became himself.

But so as I got closer to Springfield, I thought, but he's not here. He's in Washington. In my story, he's gone.

I have to go to Washington to get a sense of Lincoln, and I don't think anybody can get a sense of anything there. The only place you get a sense of is a Ford's Theater. And I can't bear to go, oh.

Mark: 00:33:20

Have you been to Ford's?

Jan: 00:33:21

The one time I finally said, okay, I'll do it with my family, it was closed for remodeling. But we did go across the street to the Peterson house.

Arnold: 00:33:30

Yeah.

Jan: 00:33:31

And then that's that.

Mark: 00:33:32

Of course, that was a very sad story.

Jan: 00:33:33

It's awful part. Although it's funny, this whole. The whole story is a Shakespearean tragedy.

Mark: 00:33:39

True.

Jan: 00:33:41

Hamlet is in there, too.

Mark: 00:33:42

No way.

Jan: 00:33:43

Hamlet's. No. It's important because it's interesting. Lincoln's campaign manager is David Davis. Is he. Davis had an effect on Lincoln. They were very close.

He was the judge on the circuit, this law circuit that they went through. They became very dear friends. And so at one point, Davis says to Lincoln, he's out in Bloomington.

He says, come on, there's a traveling group doing a Hamlet. Let's go to a Hamlet. So they go. And so when it's all over, they go back to Davis's study and they put their feet up.

And so, Davis, what did you think?

And so Lincoln unfolds this idea that Hamlet is a martyr, that in fact, the only way the rottenness in Denmark can be cured is by somebody's sacrifice. And that is Hamlet. It's just coming to grips with that. Davis listens to all this and says, I still think he's A ditherer.

Mark: 00:34:39

It'd be a word for the day.

Arnold: 00:34:42

A ditherer. You mentioned something I thought was hilarious. Talking about the publisher. Talking about your editor.

Jan: 00:34:50

Oh, the editor. Oh, no, by the way, that's absolutely true in this book. First of all, you cannot write a book and have it be successful without an editor.

You need an editor. And mine has been with me now through three books. I wrote the first part of this book.

My publisher always wants me to have an outline, and he finally pries it out of me, and when he gets it, he says, I'll throw it away and just be yourself. Just be you.

And so I went ahead and did that and we sent it up to the editor and she said, I don't think this is the same person that wrote books one and two. She said, and I spent to a month writing this wonderful chapter about Lincoln and the other lawyers on the circuit going around Illinois.

I just perfected that chapter. And she said, I almost fell asleep.

Mark: 00:35:39

Oh, tough room.

Jan: 00:35:42

So that entire six months of work had to be just chopped and reworked down the drain. That's really true.

Mark: 00:35:49

I know.

Arnold: 00:35:51

So what do you do? You go back and what do you. How do you correct that?

Jan: 00:35:56

Oh, you do chop. You just say, that chapter's gone.

Arnold: 00:36:00

Is it too long? Too wordy, too involved with characters?

Jan: 00:36:03

Too many said, too many law cases.

Arnold: 00:36:06

Okay.

Jan: 00:36:07

I thought they were all fascinating. Too many law cases. And it. And also the humor is very 19th century humor. The jokes, it's too in. It's almost.

Arnold: 00:36:18

Gotcha.

Jan: 00:36:19

Yeah. Too what Josh calls inside baseball.

Arnold: 00:36:21

Okay.

Jan: 00:36:22

You don't do it then. You really look for what's left. You look for what you like in that and you build around that.

And so when I went back to her, she said, this is the same guy.

Mark: 00:36:34

All right.

Arnold: 00:36:35

Interesting.

Mark: 00:36:36

I get it.

Arnold: 00:36:37

Now. You've been doing, really investigating, you said, for Lincoln for 20 years. You've been involved with him, really excited about him.

nd the first book came out in: 2018

Mark: 00:37:01

Was it the plan, Jan, to do five books from the very beginning, or did this kind of evolve?

Jan: 00:37:07

It evolved. It evolved, Mark.

Mark: 00:37:08

Okay.

Jan: 00:37:09

Yep, it was.

Mark: 00:37:10

Although one was not enough.

Jan: 00:37:13

I must say that Josh Stevens, who is some people, well, calling. I went back to calling. Josh is called to be a publisher.

He really understands the market for books and he's a graduate of the Iowa School of Creative Writing. So he also knows darn what ought to go Into a book. And Josh had gone to a conference on young adult and he found that what was selling was a series.

You know, have a series. And I will say one thing. At one point I was up at the Lincoln home selling books, assigning books too. And a boy is probably about 10 or 11.

He says, will there be a sequel?

Arnold: 00:37:52

There you go.

Jan: 00:37:52

So I said yes. And so I said, oh, it'll be the Harry Potter of Abraham Lincoln.

Mark: 00:37:58

I was thinking the same thing. You could do a series, HBO series.

Arnold: 00:38:06

So what have you learned about Lincoln that you didn't know? And it's maybe from this particular book.

Jan: 00:38:12

How deep he is. He's very deep.

Mark: 00:38:16

I had the sense of that too, that he was a deep individual, deep thinker, just a deep. Yeah, just a little above us all.

Jan: 00:38:25

And yet here's the point, and I don't mean that. Yes, that's what I meant earlier. Prophet or seer.

I do think that what is remarkable about him, and this has come from a couple of links and scholar friends, is that his ego was in the right place. One of them said when Abraham Lincoln walked into a room to a meeting, he checked his ego at the door.

Mark: 00:38:47

So important.

Jan: 00:38:48

Yes, it is important. And in fact, interestingly enough, it takes more self confidence to have a ego in the right place than it does to have it way up here.

Mark: 00:38:56

Amen.

Jan: 00:38:57

y written the biography. It's: 1600

But Michael's theme for this thing and his last couple of pages are Lincoln achieved an emotional maturity beyond any leader that we can think of. It's hard to think of the presidents of our time. They've been really screwed up people. The present one isn't the first.

But to have a person like Lincoln in there who now that freed him, I think being away from all his personal issues, it freed him to deal with the politics of it, which were. It's like chess in 5D. And he was brilliant at that. And so he can make those moves without thinking, oh, my legacy. He's not thinking about his legacy.

He's thinking about what will get us through this war and can we get through on that new birth of freedom in the Gettysburg Address? Can we get through with a fresh start?

He actually corrects the flaw in the Constitution, which is the Constitution allows slavery and he's the one who has to change that. It's a phenomenal story. And then of course, Nand he's killed.

Mark: 00:40:23

Yeah. For it, I think.

Jan: 00:40:24

Exactly.

Arnold: 00:40:25

Yeah.

Mark: 00:40:25

I think.

Jan: 00:40:26

And there's Hamlet.

Mark: 00:40:27

Yeah, there is Hamlet.

Jan: 00:40:28

Yeah, exactly.

Mark: 00:40:29

Very good. Really well put. Yeah.

Arnold: 00:40:31

Yeah. We've talked about in previous shows, what would reconstruction have been like had he lived? And what would re. What would.

r society had the election of: 1876

Jan: 00:40:47

at's. What if the election of: 2016

I think for years I would have said that. I don't think it would have made much difference. I'm changing that. I'm really thinking as I get. As I. More.

don't pull the plug on it in: 1876

Arnold: 00:41:19

And we talked about.

Mark, you talked about character, and Jan had talked about Lincoln's character and reminded me of the saying, does the leader make the moment or does the moment make the leader? And with the right character, the moment can make that leader into a stellar.

Jan: 00:41:41

Leader if he or she is the right person. Correct.

Arnold: 00:41:45

They have to have the right character checking that ego at the door.

Jan: 00:41:48

Yes, that's right. That is right.

Arnold: 00:41:50

And that's a really good way to say that, because we even see that in. I think you can see that in any kind of vocation where people don't check the ego at the door.

We all put our pants on the same way, one leg at a time. Unless you're a fireman, where I guess you just jump in. But those guys and gas. That's okay.

Mark: 00:42:05

I don't know where he comes out with this stuff. Down the block, you know what I'm saying? Around the corner. You're right.

Jan: 00:42:17

I hate to say it. I should say I am. I've got a couple of. Around here. Let's see on. I think it's May 17th. I'm at St. Charles.

Mark: 00:42:26

What?

Jan: 00:42:27

@ Main Street Books.

Arnold: 00:42:28

Okay.

Jan: 00:42:28

Main Street Books.

Arnold: 00:42:29

May 17th at Main Street Books in St. Charles.

Mark: 00:42:32

Good.

Jan: 00:42:32

That's a good.

Mark: 00:42:33

Gonna be in Missouri. Okay.

Jan: 00:42:38

There'll be more for me. This is. It's a marathon and not a sprint.

Mark: 00:42:43

Do they sell these at the Lincoln Museum now?

Jan: 00:42:46

Interesting enough, they sell all three at the Lincoln Home.

Mark: 00:42:49

Ah.

Jan: 00:42:50

In fact, I was up there on Saturday for a meeting, and so I popped over to the. The home where all my friends are. And so the person on the Cash register said, oh, somebody just came in. She said she's a Ranger at the St.

Louis Arch, a national park ranger. And she somehow. She'd found your first book and loved it. And she looked up there and saw books two and three.

She gone to Springfield to get away from the arch for a day. Yes, they are. Yeah. The people at the home, by the way, I think any of those sites. But if you get up there.

So you really also need to go to the old state capitol.

Arnold: 00:43:26

It's a good one.

Jan: 00:43:27

It is, yes. That so much happens there.

Arnold: 00:43:29

I think one of the most fascinating things I learned from that tour, and I'm not. This is a disclaimer, folks. So if you don't want to know what this is, just put fingers on your ears for a second here.

Is that somebody slept in a stairwell underneath or in a closet underneath the stairs. And that person ended up becoming a very famous person in the Civil War and in our country. And that person was none other than Ulysses S. Grant.

Jan: 00:43:57

Is that right?

Arnold: 00:43:59

No, he was like, he was on this. Down on.

Maybe he was still dealing with the alcoholism and he was living in a custodial closet because he was homeless underneath the stairway in the state capitol in Illinois. And then when the war started, he. He was like, okay, guess I better get going.

Jan: 00:44:15

That's another fascinating one. And I'm not anywhere near that yet. But Grant and Lincoln. And Grant. I look forward to the second book. There'll be two books for the presidency.

The second one will have the Lincoln Grant relationship. And I'll have a conversation with them before he goes off to the Virginia campaign. And they understood each other.

Arnold: 00:44:39

He finally found a general after a revolving door. I know, it's crazy.

Mark: 00:44:47

Yeah.

Arnold: 00:44:48

Thanks for coming in.

Jan: 00:44:49

Oh, please.

Arnold: 00:44:50

And please stay. We're going to finish up on the show here. We're going to actually talk about our word of the day. Oh, I've changed it. It is now ditherer.

Our word of the day is dither, folks. Someone who is unable to make decision or decisions or hesitates to act due to uncertainty or indecisiveness.

It can also refer to someone who's agitated or in a state of excitement and confusion. So don't be a ditherer.

Mark: 00:45:22

All of the above. Okay.

Arnold: 00:45:25

I would say Lincoln was not a ditherer.

Jan: 00:45:29

That's right.

Mark: 00:45:29

That's right.

Arnold: 00:45:31

It made me wonder whether Douglas had a little man complex.

Jan: 00:45:36

Although he went for the time they were about the normal height, was about five, six, five, seven. He's five, four. Lincoln is the one Who's.

Arnold: 00:45:45

Yeah. Six, four.

Jan: 00:45:46

Yeah.

Arnold: 00:45:47

That's crazy.

Mark: 00:45:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Arnold: 00:45:50

Okay. So, Jan, we. At the end of the show, we do two things. Mark talks about the days of the day. There's a couple good ones, and I give some humor.

Go ahead, Mark.

Mark: 00:46:00

Okay.

Arnold: 00:46:00

What days? What is today?

Mark: 00:46:02

One of the days of today. This is Congress working hard. National Supply Chain Day. Go figure.

Arnold: 00:46:12

I won't mention the word tariff.

Mark: 00:46:16

National Supply Chain Day is celebrated on April 29 every year to make the binding importance of the global supply chain in the everyday lives of people.

Arnold: 00:46:28

Oh, wow.

Mark: 00:46:29

How do you like that? Wow.

Jan: 00:46:31

That's a big deal.

Arnold: 00:46:33

It is a big deal.

Mark: 00:46:34

It is. We're just playing with fire here. International Dance Day. Speaking of Douglas Danson.

Arnold: 00:46:42

Yes.

Mark: 00:46:44

And Mary Todd. I know. A day of trees. I cut them down around the house. I don't know. I love trees, but not around my house. I don't know. Yeah. Let's see.

National Shrimp Scampi Day. You like shrimp scampi?

Arnold: 00:46:59

I like shrimp.

Mark: 00:47:00

Let's see. Here's one. What would you do without this? National Zipper Day. We take many things in life for granted, but the humble zipper is not one of them.

Arnold: 00:47:12

It beats Velcro sometimes.

Mark: 00:47:13

Yep, that's for sure. Let's see. We Jump the World Day.

Arnold: 00:47:18

The world.

Mark: 00:47:19

I don't understand that one. World Wish Day. Stay hopeful and happy and wish for something good to happen in the world.

Arnold: 00:47:27

Okay.

Mark: 00:47:27

Wish for peace. Peace on Earth.

Arnold: 00:47:29

The supply chain would be uninterrupted, wouldn't that be.

Mark: 00:47:34

You're just so wrong. I know. The Secret Service is outside waiting to talk to you. International Guide Dog Day is coming up.

Arnold: 00:47:41

Okay.

Mark: 00:47:42

Yeah, that's something.

Arnold: 00:47:43

I saw one the other day.

Jan: 00:47:44

Did you?

Mark: 00:47:44

Don't pet them. You're not supposed to pet them. No, I want to.

Arnold: 00:47:47

Every time I see one, they're on a mission.

Mark: 00:47:49

I know.

Arnold: 00:47:50

They have a job.

Mark: 00:47:51

And then the comfort dogs. Is that what they call them? The dogs that are that you take on the airplanes with you Comfort hamster. Yeah. No, they. I know.

Jan: 00:47:59

We've smuggled them into hotels under that.

Mark: 00:48:05

Denim Day is coming up. Healthy Kids Day. We need that. Let's see. Anything else? Military Bratz Day. I was a military brat, I think a little bit. My dad was.

Was in for 30 years, for crying out loud. And then there's so many. Where do you start? But let's see. National Bucks Bunny Day is coming up. National Larry Day. If you know anybody named Larry.

And then National Adopt a Sheltered Pet Day.

Arnold: 00:48:30

Okay, That's a good thing to do.

Jan: 00:48:31

That is.

Arnold: 00:48:32

And name it Larry.

Mark: 00:48:33

You've done it. You've done that many times, haven't you?

Arnold: 00:48:36

We have.

Jan: 00:48:37

So when is the President's birthday so we can find out when we get a national Wow. I believe. I don't even know his birthday.

Mark: 00:48:45

I can't look it up. Google won't let me look it up. I'll try later. I'll let you know later.

Jan: 00:48:54

Oh, man.

Arnold: 00:48:55

Mark. I don't always carry all the groceries on one arm, but when I do, my keys are always in the wrong pocket.

Mark: 00:49:02

That's so true. It happens to me every time.

Arnold: 00:49:05

The main function of the little toe on your foot is to make sure that all the furniture is in place in the house.

Jan: 00:49:12

Yes, it.

Arnold: 00:49:14

I just helped my neighbor bury a rolled up carpet in the woods. Her boyfriend would have done it, but he's out of town.

Mark: 00:49:23

Wonder where he is.

Arnold: 00:49:26

A man loses three fingers in a work accident, and at the hospital he asks the doctor, will I be able to drive with this hand? The doctor replies, maybe, but I wouldn't count on it.

Mark: 00:49:38

What is this? I know where I know.

Arnold: 00:49:40

And finally. This is not finally, but my winter fat is gone. Now I have spring rolls. Have you ever been skydiving?

Jan: 00:49:54

No.

Mark: 00:49:54

Don't even.

Arnold: 00:49:56

No.

Mark: 00:49:56

No.

Arnold: 00:49:58

So I went skydiving for the first time. This guy strapped himself to me. We jumped out of the plane, and as we plummeted, he said, so how long have you been an instructor?

Mark: 00:50:10

Not that long. I know.

Arnold: 00:50:13

Have you been in one of those moods where you don't really know what's wrong, but you feel really irritated with everyone and everything?

Mark: 00:50:19

Yes, I have. I know that. I know what you're talking about.

Arnold: 00:50:24

Yes. Let's see.

Mark: 00:50:25

Okay. We're waiting for more. I know you've got more there.

Arnold: 00:50:27

Oh, yeah. I got to go back. Go back.

Mark: 00:50:30

Here we go.

Arnold: 00:50:32

I don't understand people who say, I don't know how to thank you. Like they've never heard of money.

Mark: 00:50:40

Send money, not accolades.

Arnold: 00:50:42

Okay, this is the perfect sticker for people who are going on a road trip. It's a bumper sticker. It says on the back of the car. It says, it was $700. I'll be merging now.

Mark: 00:50:57

Get the horse out of here.

Jan: 00:50:58

What?

Arnold: 00:51:02

And finally, my friend. Finally.

Jan: 00:51:05

Okay.

Arnold: 00:51:05

My friend forgot his laptop on the floor of my room. My grandma thought it was a scale. Conclusion. She weighs $950.

Mark: 00:51:17

Oh, no.

Arnold: 00:51:20

That's all for this hour, folks. We thank you for listening.

If you've enjoyed this episode, you can listen to additional shows at sleep stlintune.com Consider leaving a review on our website, Apple Podcasts, Podchaser, or your preferred podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and continue to grow.

I want to thank Bob Berthicel for our theme music, our guest Jan Jacoby, our sponsor, Better Rate Mortgage and our co host, Mark Langston. Thank you folks for being part of our community of curious minds. St. Louis Intune is a production of Motif Media Group and the US Radio Network.

Remember to keep seeking, keep learning, walk worthy and let your light shine. For St. Louis in tune, I'm Arnold Stricker.